I agree with your assessment of Steve and Rumlow’s working relationship, but I want to add that HYDRA isn’t technically a Nazi organisation in MCU. In 616, yes, Red Skull was Hitler’s right-hand man and did the whole heil Hitler, Iron Cross, goose-step spiel. In MCU, however, HYDRA turns rogue fairly early in CA:FA; a Nazi officer tells Red Skull that “the Führer is not accustomed to being ignored, Herr Schmidt,” but Red Skull counters him by saying that he is in exile because he “no longer reflects [Hitler’s] image of Aryan perfection,” and delivers his damning verdict of Hitler’s rule:
Huh I’d never thought about it like that—-
I’ve wondered about Rumlow and Steve’s relationship though, in the sense that I wonder how modern HYDRA views Captain America?
As a Nazi organization one would think they’d have really ambivalent attitudes towards this physically perfect super-human blond-haired blue-eyed white guy who killed Red Skull and works for Nick Fury, yknow?
Sometimes I wonder if Rumlow was supposed to spy on Steve in particular? Did he know Steve was going to be killed?
I wonder if Rumlow ever tried to subtly see if Steve could be convinced to defect to HYDRA, maybe by feeling out if Steve’s fear and alienation with modernity and technology (and maybe his dissilussionment with the American government) could make him vulnerable to being swayed.
I feel like he would probably view Steve and Natasha’s relationship as not too threatening—- maybe he’d be miffed that HE wasn’t Steve’s main work-buddy (not because he likes Steve, but because why would a fellow manly he-man prefer a woman’s company over his?)
But no one views Natasha as very trustworthy, and probably Rumlow would assume their relationship wasn’t very strong?
I’m not sure, it’s interesting to think about all the relationship stuff that coulda went on pre-WS. I kinda like to think Rumlow tried to get cozy with Steve at some point but Steve just didn’t like him and wasn’t having any of it.
"Hitler speaks of a 1,000-year Reich, but he cannot feed his armies for a month. His troops spill their blood across every field in Europe, but still he is no closer to achieving his goals."
When the Nazi officers show themselves ignorant of the scientific progress Red Skull has achieved, Red Skull tells them that “great power has always baffled primitive men,” and after killing them with his new weapon he informs Dr. Zola that “we both knew HYDRA could grow no further in Hitler’s shadow.”
MCU’s Johann Schmidt considered the Nazis small-minded and uninspired; he was a scientist, not a soldier like his 616 alter ego, and therefore disinclined to obey orders from people less intelligent than himself—like the modern HYDRA-in-S.H.I.E.L.D., HYDRA of 1945 infiltrated and piggybacked on the Nazi party, playing along while siphoning off funds and troops for its own purposes until it grew strong enough to reveal itself. HYDRA is a parasite and its first victim is always its host; HYDRA-in-S.H.I.E.L.D. killed S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, and HYDRA of 1945 killed Nazi officers. So HYDRA hasn’t officially been a Nazi organisation since 1945, but it would be more accurate to say that it never was, no more than it was a S.H.I.E.L.D. organisation prior to revealing itself in CA:TWS.
Also, in my personal opinion there’s nothing in CA:TWS to suggest that Alexander Pierce or Brock Rumlow supports Nazism as a political ideology, or that the modern version of HYDRA plans to continue Hitler’s legacy. If anything, I think it’d be more correct to refer to HYDRA-in-S.H.I.E.L.D. as a domestic terrorist group with militant fascist leanings.
Well there’s nothing in CATWS to suggest Pierce or Rumlow DON’T support Nazism as a political ideology; all we see is that they support fascism and improvement through physical suffering (Rumlow)
What reason is there to think that the Red Skull distanced himself from Nazi ideals?? (Eugenics, scientific racism, anti-semitism, fascism…)
The fact that the movie didn’t really mention some of these things reflects more the filmmakers’ reluctance to include such heavy material than anything else.
Definitely in MCU Red Skull seperated himself from Hitler, NOT because he disagreed with Nazism, but because he thought Hitler wasn’t going far enough.
I don’t understand why people like to act like HYDRA is “innocent-until-proven-Nazi.”
They were founded by an overly-ambitious Nazi scientist and a Nazi doctor, and lest we forget, Zola is still actively a part of MODERN-DAY HYDRA. Dr. Zola was painstakingly preserved as Artificial Intelligence and HYDRA still employs the assassin he created with Nazi science.
Even if they splintered off from the official Nazi party early on, what on earth COULD they be but fanatic Nazi extremists by another name?
HYDRA is clearly coded as a Neo-Nazi terrorist organization (not to mention they are literally called Nazis in CATFA AND in AOU, so we know that HYDRA-as-Nazis is pretty common belief)
And just because they don’t have Rumlow and Pierce saying “We are Nazis,” doesn’t make it less obvious imo. (Hail Hydra, anyone??)
In fact, for them to make it more obvious would verge on campy.
Add this to the fact that Neo-Nazi groups today vary widely in their ideologies, their official platforms, attitudes towards religion, Hitler, politics, and all the rest…
But several major Neo-Nazi groups have pursued strategies that include infiltrating government and random acts of terrorism with the hope of destabilizing the public and causing mass unrest that will lead to an eventual race war.
So yeah, HYDRA are definitely Neo-Nazis, or at least a terrorist organization bent on world domination with roots in Nazi ideology, and tbh I don’t really know what the difference is.
This is all making me feel incredibly old, I’ve got to say. I’ve known Nazis, I’ve fought neo-Nazis. I’m not going to go into the atrocities I’ve witnessed them commit but I was barely 13 when we had to band together and make sure we knew how to use weapons because of the threat posed by neo-Nazis. I’ve gone through basic night-weapons training to go out neo-Nazi hunting in the dead of night (no, my life is no longer this ‘interesting’).
Nazis didn’t just die out after WW2 was over, they were still there, still alive. And many of them stayed right where they were, in the jobs (often important ones, especially including judiciary, legislative, scientific or medical positions) they had during the war. The premise of Nazi scientists like Zola being recruited to work for the United States is based on history. Nazis continued to have a massive amount of influenced directly for generations in Europe (and the US) and more ‘indirectly’ through the so-called neo-Nazis, i.e. their kids and friends of their kids and grand children and the organisations they formed, their writings, their ideologies, the Nazi meet-ups they had with right-wingers in neighbouring countries and so on.
This ‘modern’ Hydra was built up inside SHIELD by Zola and other Nazi scientists like him, many of whom probably completely agreed with Hitler on all points anyway, even if they briefly worked for the Skull. Zola showed Cap and Nat footage from WW2 that wasn’t really about Hydra, but about Hitler’s war effort. His only comment was that the world needed to be even more chaotic for all that to work.
'Nazi' is commonly used to describe people who used to be party members, but also people who share Nazi ideologies. Hydra grew directly out of a branch of the original Nazi party (out of their scientific division), and they're still all 'Heil Hydra', so it is a Nazi organisation, not 'just' a vaguely related fascist organisation.
In Agents of Shield Grant Ward might say he’s not a Nazi, but everything he says to Skye is classic neo-Nazi defence rhetoric, which only serves to implicate him further. This was very obviously a conscious decision on the part of the writers to make it clear that he is a Nazi by putting such stereotypical words into this mouth; like kissingcullens said, they just didn’t want to make it ‘comically obvious’, although they almost do with all the ‘Heil Hydra’ stuff.
Steve Rogers and Captain America were created in 1941 by two Jewish cartoonists with the specific idea in mind to spur the American people on into joining the fight against the Nazis, as this map highlights how pressing the matter was:
That’s what CA:TFA is all about, but the film fell a bit flat on the thematic issues, because those are issues that were pressing back in 1941 when the comics first came out. CA:TWS on the other hand deals with the modern thematic issue of white supremacist ideals, embodied in the powerful, middle aged white man Alexander Pierce, that affect the world today. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the big bad, the head of Hydra, isn’t taken down by Steve in CA:TWS. Instead it’s a black man and an Eastern European woman who take him down. Fury is the one who ultimately ends Pierce’s life, and it’s Sam Wilson who fights Rumlow in the final battle, while Steve is off trying to get his boyfriend from a past life to remember him. Again, coded stuff by the writers. If they hadn’t intended there to be such messages in there they wouldn’t have shown Fury’s interactions with the DC cops earlier, for instance. It was all very deliberate.
Nazi ideals didn’t come out of nowhere, they were already in white US and European culture (not all European countries maybe, but many of them). And they didn’t disappear after WW2. The Nazis didn’t just disappear. Eugenics programmes experimenting on black and brown people in the US continued for decades after, as an example. Before WW2 gave eugenics a ‘bad name’, there were ‘Eugenics Feminist Meetings’ in America. Those also continued afterwards, they just used another name, because ‘eugenics’ just wasn’t trendy/acceptable to use as a word any more. Similarly not all Nazis might want to call themselves Nazis after the war - doesn’t make them any less Nazis.
We are still fighting (or not, sadly) against this white supremacist and Nazi legacy, and CA:TWS deals with those issues, which are current ones, by making the influence white supremacists have on our world today concrete in the form of Hydra, a Nazi organisation.
so here’s a bit of a treat. This is a piece I did that has never been shown in any capacity ever. This is Unused art I made a few years ago to along with the Captain American Premium Format statue from Sideshow Collectibles from the first film.. It was inevitable never approved in time to be produced along with the statue, but I’ve finally received word I can share it, so at least there is that.
"Because, and you listen close, Steven. You always stand up.”
I thought I could fly
So why did I drown?
I’ll never know why
Its coming down, down, down.
Punch me in the face if I draw him again
~ Finally ~
Those posters in the back are (i hope) the original ones from the New York World Fair from 1939.
Im loving it forever. I need a print of this, to keep and not forget. *v*
New print for Japan Expo 2014!!! Find me at the “Ziggies On Mars" booth! We’ll get a plan soon.
It’ll be up on my shop as soon as I’m back from the con.
I wanted to try a new way of colouring and keeping my black shading which i just love doing. So, drew my Big Blond & Beautiful duo!
Well clearly I will have to buy this when it shows up in your shop!